FCB-Forum

rotoloso hat geschrieben:Snorky, as i said, in the case of L'pool is not because of the fear of violence, it's because of the respect and to prevent violence, that doesn't means that you are affraid, that means that you are conscious of a danger and try to avoid it.

Fair enough, but should we never go to Juventus or Italy again ?

Snorky hat geschrieben:Fair enough, but should we never go to Juventus or Italy again ?

You can go to Italiy, but I think for a long time you shuoldn't go to Turin.

Snorky hat geschrieben:Fair enough, but should we never go to Juventus or Italy again ?

Exactly... Never again

Rinoceronte hat geschrieben:Exactly... Never again

Wäre schön wenn die Juve Fans das auch anwenden würden! Nicht für England! Nein am besten für die ganze Welt!

Hugentobler hat geschrieben:Wäre schön wenn die Juve Fans das auch anwenden würden! Nicht für England! Nein am besten für die ganze Welt!

Völlig unnötige Komentar

Rinoceronte hat geschrieben:Going to Turin now, will be as if you rub salt in a open wound. The fact, that there is a great memorial for the victims of Hillborough and only a little shrine in the back of the L'pool museum for Haysle is already to much.
What do you aspect? That the Juve Supporters and the whole city accept an apology 20(!) years after it happened, with a choreo that simply spells 'sorry'.....

Also, there is John Williams, blaming Leeds and Chelsea Hooligans for starting the roit in 1985, because the Liverpool FC has and always had only peacefull fans and no hooligans at all.......

First point, this is not the first apology and there have been many things going on they have not been reported.

I do not expect every Juventus fans to accept every apology, but I was surprised by the reaction of a large number of the 1,900 Juve fans at Anfield last night.

I admit Liverpool did have a real hooligan element in the 1980's and to blame Leeds and Chelsea fans is/was wrong because if there were Leeds and Chelsea fans there, they would have attacked.

There were a number of incidents leading up to the wall collapsing, that on their own are small but when you put them together become big (if you understand).

The previous year 1984 Liverpool won the European Cup in Rome against Roma !!! Liverpool fans were attacked both by fans and police and many coaches travelled the long journey home without windows. There were 20 or so Liverpool fans in hospital with stab wounds.

In January 1985, Liverpool played Juventus in Turin in the Super Cup. Liverpool only took about 400 fans to the game but the police managed to get them all together and left whilst Juve fans repeatedly attacked them for upto 30 minutes. Once again every coach lost windows.

So 4 months later we play Juventus again, only this time there are more Liverpool fans than Juventus so there is no trouble in the streets before the game.

Liverpool officials had written to UEFA several times expressing concern about the lack of facilities at the stadium, the state of the stadium and the ability for the Brussels authorities to stage such a game. All their fears were realised yet UEFA did nothing.

So, to the game itself. Juventus had one large section behind one goal and Liverpool had a smaller section at the opposite end next to more Juventus fans in the 'neutral' section.

There was a lot of goading and then Liverpool fans were attacked by Juventus fans in the 'neutral' section which prompted the mass of Liverpool fans to storm the fence.

What Liverpool fans did then was wrong, I am not making excuses nor am I condoning their action. But as with everything there are reasons below the surface if you are prepared to look.

Those Liverpool fans in the 'neutral' section were getting beaten up badly and who knows what could have happened to them if the beatings were allowed to continue.

@rotoloso and Rinoceronte

It saddens me that you think this way

Snorky hat geschrieben:@rotoloso and Rinoceronte

It saddens me that you think this way

That's not my opinion but i know italians (because i'm also) and i can immagine what could happen, but i repeat, it's not my opinion i just would be happy that nobody will be hurt, not L'pool fans neither Juventus fans.

rotoloso hat geschrieben:That's not my opinion but i know italians (because i'm also) and i can immagine what could happen, but i repeat, it's not my opinion i just would be happy that nobody will be hurt, not L'pool fans neither Juventus fans.

I really hope that no-one gets hurt but I fear this will not be the case. It seems that for every fan that wants peace there is a fan that wants war.

Snorky hat geschrieben:.
Juventus will have 50,000 plus in the ground, will all those fans be looking for revenge or a small percentage ?

well, i can't answer this question. i only think that 50'000 will not welcome you and from this 50'000 about 2'000 will looking for revenge.

italien supporters are very very radical and a few weeks ago the main group of ultras in turin has changed to a old main group (named "drughi"), which was in heysel. with this changing of main ultra group the juve fans become much more radical as with the old group ("fighters").

i also think that the italiens will come with weappons like knives, belts usw...

for each l'pool supporter, who'll travel to turin i only can apologise: be careful, don't run trought the city, like is your city.

This Picture is from this Page: http://bianconeri.tripod.com

Asselerade hat geschrieben:well, i can't answer this question. i only think that 50'000 will not welcome you and from this 50'000 about 2'000 will looking for revenge.

italien supporters are very very radical and a few weeks ago the main group of ultras in turin has changed to a old main group (named "drughi"), which was in heysel. with this changing of main ultra group the juve fans become much more radical as with the old group ("fighters").

i also think that the italiens will come with weappons like knives, belts usw...

for each l'pool supporter, who'll travel to turin i only can apologise: be careful, don't run trought the city, like is your city.

I am aware of the Drughi, there was a big flag at the front of the Juve fans last night, and it was those who turned their backs on a special banner made that was carried towards them.

You might not be aware that a match was staged between Liverpool and Juve fans at the Liverpool Academy (training ground) before the game. Liverpool won 4-3 .

My real fear is another needless death to an innocent fan - there has been enough bloodshed and tears.

hey snorky, look at this:
http://bianconeri.tripod.com/pictifo/juve87.html

this picture is from this page:
http://bianconeri.tripod.com

Callmund hat geschrieben:hey snorky, look at this:
http://bianconeri.tripod.com/pictifo/juve87.html

this picture is from this page:
http://bianconeri.tripod.com

Thank you Callmund, I have not seen those before, the picture is bad and the reports "The Truth about the Heysel tragedy" is very similar to what I have said in this thread. It was wrong what Liverpool fans did that night, you cannot take that away EVER, but there were reasons/provocations from earlier matches and on the night that caused the Liverpool fans to rush as they did.

I am not trying to make excuses for the night, I am just trying to explain why - if I can.

Snorky hat geschrieben: My real fear is another needless death to an innocent fan - there has been enough bloodshed and tears.

i don't think that it will die fan's. i guess that wasn't a murdered fan in italy since 1995 (honour to spagnolo!!).

21:50 05Apr2005
LIVERPOOL, England, April 5 (Reuters) - Twenty years ago Juventus fan Alberto Schibone was in the Heysel Stadium on one of soccer's blackest nights.
On Tuesday he made his first trip to Liverpool for a match he hopes will help heal the wounds opened on that fateful May evening in 1985, when a riot by Liverpool fans at the European Cup final triggered the collapse of a stadium wall and the death of 39 mostly Juventus fans.
"We've come here for reconciliation," Schibone said as he and his friends took in the atmosphere at Anfield ahead of what promises to be an emotional Champions League clash between the two great clubs -- their first since Heysel.
"When the draw for this round of the competition was made, I really hoped we were drawn against Liverpool. I think both clubs need this to be able to come to terms with what happened 20 years ago."
The significance of this match has been lost on no one in Liverpool.
The city's newspaper, The Liverpool Echo, printed the names of the 39 victims of Heysel on its front page on Tuesday, above a banner headline which read simply "We're Sorry".
A special match was staged in Liverpool on Tuesday afternoon between fans of the two clubs while a delegation was dispatched to Liverpool's John Lennon airport to welcome Juventus players and fans to the city.
Before kickoff Phil Neal and Michel Platini, the respective captains at Heysel in 1985, took part in a ceremony in which fans carried a banner from the Liverpool supporters' end -- the famous Spion Kop -- to the visiting fans' end of the ground.
The banner bore the message "In Memoria e Amicizia" (in memory and friendship) along with the names of the 39 victims of the disaster.

COMMEMORATIVE WRISTBAND
Visiting fans were all given a commemorative wristband in black white and red -- the three colours of the two clubs - and many joined in an emotional rendition of the Liverpool fans' anthem, "You'll Never Walk Alone".
During the minute's silence before kickoff in memory of the Heysel victims and the death of Pope John Paul, Liverpool fans held up a collage of cards to spell out the message "Amicizia" (friendship) to the Juve fans, who responded by clapping.
Earlier, UEFA chief executive officer Lars-Christer Olsen issued a statement saying: "What happened at Heysel in 1985 was a tragedy for all those involved, the two clubs, the fans, their families and football as a whole. Tonight we pay our respects to those supporters and families who suffered loss on that day.
"However, football has made significant improvements and advancements since that very dark day and I am hopeful that as well as acting as a remembrance, this game will be looked on as the final part of the healing process."
Fabio Castricone, a 35-year-old Juventus fan who remembers watching the Heysel tragedy unfold on television, said: "I think this match will be different from any other,"
"I wanted to come at all costs. I think this will help relationships between the two clubs although Juve fans will never forget what happened."
Many Juventus supporters wore scarves with the emblems and colours of both Juve and Liverpool.
Liverpool fans were shaking the hands of visiting supporters in a gesture of friendship.
Despite the feeling of goodwill at Anfield, many Juventus supporters said Liverpool fans might not get such a warm reception in Turin for the return leg next week.
"We've been treated well here. We spent the afternoon in a bar having a few drinks with the Liverpool fans," said Graziano Tassi.
"But you don't forget everything over a couple of drinks."


12:30 06Apr2005
MILAN, April 6 (Reuters) - Italy's media praised Liverpool supporters for their tributes to the victims of the Heysel tragedy while criticising the behaviour of a section of Juventus fans at Tuesday's Champions League quarter-final at Anfield.
Liverpool and Juventus met for the first time since the Heysel Stadium tragedy 20 years ago in which 39 fans, mainly Italian, were killed when a wall collapsed following crowd trouble at the European Cup final in Brussels.
A pre-game ceremony on Tuesday featured Liverpool fans taking a banner to the Juve supporters with the message "in memory and friendship".
Fans from both clubs staged a football match in the city before kickoff while there was a stirring rendition of Liverpool's anthem "You'll Never Walk Alone".
However, a section of Juventus fans turned their backs on the ceremony and whistles and boos were heard. There were also unpleasant incidents at the airport.
The Turin-based daily La Stampa headlined its report on the Heysel tributes: "At the festival of friendship, ignorance wins".
The efforts of the home club were praised but it was reported that Juve supporters had insulted the mayor of Liverpool when he greeted them at the city's airport.
"It was to be the festival of friendship, a giant eraser to rub out the sins of the English at Heysel. The tribute of Liverpool to the Juventus fans became a diplomatic incident, an enormous embarrassment and in practice, a disgrace," said the paper, adding that several Juve supporters had been arrested at the airport.
The paper also criticised the response of Juventus fans in the stadium to the Kop's raising of a card-based mural carrying the slogan 'Amicizia' (friendship).
"To the applause of the opposing fans they turned their backs and raised their middle finger. The enormous difference was there to see," reported the paper.

ECHO APOLOGY
Gazzetta dello Sport gave lengthy coverage to the Liverpool Echo's front page apology for Heysel on Tuesday and reported the efforts of Liverpool fans to "embrace" the visiting Italians.
"It was an embrace that died against a wall of indifference, which was unfortunately coloured black and white," said Gazzetta.
The paper also reported the carrying of a memorial on to the field by former Liverpool and Juventus striker Ian Rush and ex-Juve favourite Michel Platini.
"A numerous part of the 2,000 supporters from Italy, in the sector behind the goal, did not join in the spirit or the behaviour," added the paper.
Corriere dello Sport welcomed the initiative taken by Liverpool: "Anfield Road offers a message to the Juventini - Friendship".
It added the night was "one of thousands of sentiments and thousands of emotions, contrasting but certainly intense", saying the city had "done the impossible to say that Heysel was a mad bestiality".
Under the headline "Italians snub attempt to heal the wounds", the UK's Daily Mail newspaper reported there was ill-feeling when Juve fans began chanting during the minute's silence that followed the rendition of "You'll Never Walk Alone".
In a Daily Mirror column headlined "Hope for the future rises from horrors of the past", former Liverpool player Mark Lawrenson said: "Although the pain of what happened will never go away, the strength of the bond between the two clubs enabled the game to be a coming together, rather than a re-opening of old wounds".

Rinoceronte hat geschrieben:Völlig unnötige Komentar

So unnötig wie deins gegenüber Snorky

behinderte reporter und behinderte zeitungsberichte. was geht es die an, wie die juventini auf die gesten der liverpool-fans reagieren? einen feuchten dreck. die juve-fans können doch machen was sie wollen, wie wir, ihr oder die zeitungen darüber denken tun nichts zu sache. das opfer kann doch selbst entscheiden wann es dem täter vergibt. überall wird das respektiert nur anscheinend in der kommerziellen fussballwelt nicht

Mir scheint, dass dieser Forum-Bereich zu einer Plattform von überdurchschnittlich vielen, von Komplexen behafteten Fan-Experten (alle mit besten Kontakten zur obersten Führungsriege der Todesschwadronen der kinderfressenden Ultragruppierungen) verkommen ist, um fussballapokalyptische Racheszenarien herbeizusehnen.
Hoffentlich erweisen sich Eure Prophezeiungen als so armselig wie Eure sonstigen Beiträge. Bei soviel Scheisse, die hier in den Mund genommen wird, wundert es, dass noch niemand dran erstickt ist.

Shanks hat geschrieben:Mir scheint, dass dieser Forum-Bereich zu einer Plattform von überdurchschnittlich vielen, von Komplexen behafteten Fan-Experten (alle mit besten Kontakten zur obersten Führungsriege der Todesschwadronen der kinderfressenden Ultragruppierungen) verkommen ist, um fussballapokalyptische Racheszenarien herbeizusehnen.
Hoffentlich erweisen sich Eure Prophezeiungen als so armselig wie Eure sonstigen Beiträge. Bei soviel Scheisse, die hier in den Mund genommen wird, wundert es, dass noch niemand dran erstickt ist.

I fühl mi Aagsproche aber i muess sage i kenn absolut keini Juve-Ultras no ha irgendwelche Kontakt oder weiss öbbis also wirklich absolut nütt, i versetz mi numme in d'Lag vommene betroffene und do ich die ital. Mentalität kenn möcht i die Lütt warne will i, das wenig wo ich dezue ka biitrage dasses käi 2. Massaker gitt, au mache möcht, meh nid...

Shanks hat geschrieben:Mir scheint, dass dieser Forum-Bereich zu einer Plattform von überdurchschnittlich vielen, von Komplexen behafteten Fan-Experten (alle mit besten Kontakten zur obersten Führungsriege der Todesschwadronen der kinderfressenden Ultragruppierungen) verkommen ist, um fussballapokalyptische Racheszenarien herbeizusehnen.
Hoffentlich erweisen sich Eure Prophezeiungen als so armselig wie Eure sonstigen Beiträge. Bei soviel Scheisse, die hier in den Mund genommen wird, wundert es, dass noch niemand dran erstickt ist.

sehr produktiv!

Snorky hat geschrieben:@Rotoloso

We are fully aware that there will be problems in Turin, but that is not stopping over 3,000 Liverpool fans making the journey. I do not know to go or not yet I will decide in the next few days.
The Italian police will be of no help, they are like every foreign police force who see English fans as hooligans first and people second.

@Falcao

It does look like this was the first time that we have said sorry. But there has been a lot of messages and visits over the years that have gone un-noticed by the media. Because this was the first time we had met since 1985, the club decided to make a real effort.

To an outsider it does seem like it has been 20 years to late, but that is not the case.

thank you for all these informations.
I think, You're the best example for a fair and intelligent thinking guy all over this.
I hope, nothing's gonna happen to You, if You decide to go to Italy.
I think we should really pray to god for this 13th april.

And: buy somewhere a Juve shirt, and take it with You in Italy. In case of emergency, put Your LFC stuff away at once!

All the Best, Snorky!

Shanks hat geschrieben:Mir scheint, dass dieser Forum-Bereich zu einer Plattform von überdurchschnittlich vielen, von Komplexen behafteten Fan-Experten (alle mit besten Kontakten zur obersten Führungsriege der Todesschwadronen der kinderfressenden Ultragruppierungen) verkommen ist, um fussballapokalyptische Racheszenarien herbeizusehnen.
Hoffentlich erweisen sich Eure Prophezeiungen als so armselig wie Eure sonstigen Beiträge. Bei soviel Scheisse, die hier in den Mund genommen wird, wundert es, dass noch niemand dran erstickt ist.

Grundsätzlich hast Du ja Recht aber in diesem Fall sollten die LFC Fans schon ein bisschen vorsichtig sein, weil ich befürchte, dass viele Reds zu friedlich und naiv mit der Heysel-Geschichte umgehen (in etwa: Hello Turin, we come in peace, lets share a couple of pints together and be friends forever..). Schön wärs aber die Tifosis denken da leider ein wenig anders. Oder würdest Du Dich in diesem Fall wohl fühlen in Turin?

Falcão hat geschrieben:thank you for all these informations.
I think, You're the best example for a fair and intelligent thinking guy all over this.
I hope, nothing's gonna happen to You, if You decide to go to Italy.
I think we should really pray to god for this 13th april.

And: buy somewhere a Juve shirt, and take it with You in Italy. In case of emergency, put Your LFC stuff away at once!

All the Best, Snorky!

Thank you for your kind words. If I do go I will working for LFC so I will not be like a 'normal' fan.

I do not want to go for fear of trouble, but I want to go because I do not want violence to win. It is a very fine line.

damit einige gemüter hier drin wieder ein bischen beruhigt werden hier noch das fantastische "YOU''LL NEVER WALK ALONE" von gestern abend.

http://bennovg.footballclips.net/PL/ynwa.wmv
http://bennovg.footballclips.net/PL/intro.mpg

die fans von liverpool gehören zu den besten auf der ganzen welt. ich glaube kaum, dass es in turin reds supporter geben wird, die sturzbetrunken und herumjohlend in der city rumtorkeln.

STEVIE GERRARD hat geschrieben:damit einige gemüter hier drin wieder ein bischen beruhigt werden hier noch das fantastische "YOU''LL NEVER WALK ALONE" von gestern abend.

http://bennovg.footballclips.net/PL/ynwa.wmv
http://bennovg.footballclips.net/PL/intro.mpg

die fans von liverpool gehören zu den besten auf der ganzen welt. ich glaube kaum, dass es in turin reds supporter geben wird, die sturzbetrunken und herumjohlend in der city rumtorkeln.

ich glaube, hier drin werden beiträge wie jene von rotoloso (z.b) völlig falsch aufgefasst. viele (wie unter anderem ich) sind dieser begegnung neutral eingestellt, nur schreiben sie halt was sie denken wie die italiener im rückspiel reagieren werden (und das sind erst alles nur vermutungen). diese vermutungen und der aufsteigende ärger bei einigen (unverständnis über die reaktion der juvefans) löst sich dann in aggression gegen diese poster nieder. finde ich ehrlich gesagt unnötig.

die liverpool-fans haben sich gestern vorbidlich verhalten und haben alles gemacht was in ihrer macht stand. nur kann man halt den zeitpunkt nicht bestimmen, wo die gegenseite einem vergibt (meine meinung). ob das jetzt unverständlich und ignorant erscheint haben wir nicht zu beurteilen sondern nur diejenigen, die zu schaden gekommen sind (meine meinung).

Gruess

Hallo zusammen

Habe ein bisschen in diesem Thread rumgelesen......Hmmmmmm

Was erwartet den Pools Anhänger in Turin......??

Eine Menge Cellerinis....und eine Menge `incazzati`...!!

Dazu kommt das viele Polls Anhänger ohne Tix anreisen wird......

...das gibt sicher ein tolles Spiel......

A propos am Anfang des piels haben sich einige hundert Juve Anhänger

umgedreht um den " sogenannten" Versöhnungsakt nicht nzu schauen....!!

Asselerade hat geschrieben: nur kann man halt den zeitpunkt nicht bestimmen, wo die gegenseite einem vergibt (meine meinung). ob das jetzt unverständlich und ignorant erscheint haben wir nicht zu beurteilen sondern nur diejenigen, die zu schaden gekommen sind (meine meinung).

Gruess

damit hast du eigentlich alles gesagt, was dazu gesagt werden muss!!

do no e text zum rückspiel für unseri italienisch-sprechende fründe, zum übersetze hani im moment kei zit.

A Torino allarme rosso ultrà


Tam tam di minacce contro i sostenitori del Liverpool: scatta il piano anti-incidenti della polizia. Messaggi farneticanti sui siti frequentati dai tifosi


TORINO, 7 aprile 2005 - "Amicizia" proponeva la Kop, la curva di Anfield, ventu2019anni dopo la tragedia dellu2019Heysel. Ma una parte della tifoseria bianconera, lu2019ala dura degli ultras, non lu2019ha raccolta, offrendo le spalle e il dito medio alla mano tesa dei tifosi del Liverpool. E questo, in vista del ritorno di mercoledì, sta facendo crescere la preoccupazione, anche perché sui vari "muri" online frequentati dai sostenitori della Juventus sono comparse minacce di morte verso gli inglesi al grido di "vendetta". Sono 4.000 i supporters che arriveranno da Liverpool per il ritorno dei quarti di Champions, ma potrebbero essere molti di più u2014 e fuori controllo allo stadio u2014 se è vero che tanti altri hanno acquistato biglietti via Internet in settori destinati agli juventini. Una situazione esplosiva, palesatasi martedì sera durante la cerimonia di commemorazione per le 39 vittime dellu2019Heysel, con quel gesto di rifiuto della pace auspicata da tutti.
"Noi cerchiamo di educare i nostri tifosi in modo che abbiano un comportamento civile u2014 ha detto subito dopo la partita Fabio Capello, desolato u2014 e loro ci ricambiano con manifestazioni come questa". "Io sul momento non me nu2019ero neanche accorto u2014 ha dichiarato invece ieri Luciano Moggi u2014 Ho visto il gesto di una parte dei nostri tifosi in televisione e mi è parso un comportamento censurabile, anche se non esagerato. Sono ragazzate alle quali non darei troppo peso". Deve darglielo, invece, la Questura di Torino, che dal giorno del sorteggio è al lavoro per prevenire incidenti, in stretto contatto con la polizia di Liverpool. Tre agenti e un funzionario della Digos martedì erano là, per aiutare i colleghi inglesi.
A parte gli otto fermati allu2019aeroporto per aver tentato di passare la dogana senza mostrare i documenti (tutti già rimpatriati), non ci sono stati particolari problemi. Ma la polizia locale per tutto il giorno ha cercato di raggruppare i vari gruppetti di italiani sparsi per la città, magari per semplice turismo, in modo da tenerli più facilmente sotto controllo. La partita a rischio, però, è quella di ritorno, a Torino, come dimostrano le minacce apparse su vari siti. "Da vent'anni si aspettava, adesso è ora di vendetta". "Uccidiamo loro come loro hanno fatto con noi". "Torino 13.4.2005: apre la caccia allu2019inglese". "Onore a chi ad Anfield si è girato e a chi ha rifiutato un'amicizia che ucciderebbe una seconda volta quelle 39 persone". "Le vendette si fanno coi fatti e non coi discorsi. Dal Delle Alpi non usciranno vivi: affilate i coltelli e preparate le spranghe".
Magari sono solo spacconate, però la Digos non si può permettere di considerarle tali. "Più delle minacce ci preoccupa la mancata accoglienza del clima pacificatorio offerto dagli inglesi u2014 dice un funzionario u2014. Ma non possiamo non tenere presenti pure quelle e siamo in costante contatto col dottor Lewis della polizia di Liverpool per prevenire incidenti, anche in considerazione della possibilità che diversi inglesi abbiano acquistato biglietti su Internet, mischiandosi così ai tifosi juventini. Non sarà una partita ordinaria e ci siamo attrezzati di conseguenza, rinforzando il servizio allo stadio e in tutta la città. Temiamo un clima aggressivo e che qualcuno possa dar seguito alle minacce, in particolare durante la giornata, in città, dove è più difficile il controllo. Ma conosciamo i nostri "clienti": recentemente abbiamo diffidato diversi ultrà e sanno di avere il fiato sul collo".

Shanks hat geschrieben:Mir scheint, dass dieser Forum-Bereich zu einer Plattform von überdurchschnittlich vielen, von Komplexen behafteten Fan-Experten (alle mit besten Kontakten zur obersten Führungsriege der Todesschwadronen der kinderfressenden Ultragruppierungen) verkommen ist, um fussballapokalyptische Racheszenarien herbeizusehnen.
Hoffentlich erweisen sich Eure Prophezeiungen als so armselig wie Eure sonstigen Beiträge. Bei soviel Scheisse, die hier in den Mund genommen wird, wundert es, dass noch niemand dran erstickt ist.

WORD PERFECT!

der alte sack